Y Gweinidog
Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau—Sesiwn Dystiolaeth Lafar
The Minister for Local Government and Communities—Oral
Evidence Session
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[1]
William Powell: Good morning, Minister. We are very grateful
to you for sparing the time to join us this morning to consider the
two petitions before us. I ask you to introduce your team, and then
we will start the evidence session.
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[2]
The Minister for Local Government and Communities (Carl
Sargeant): Good morning, Chair and committee. It is good to be
back, although it is not that long since I was here last. I will
ask my team to give their full names and titles, if that is
helpful.
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[3]
Ms Carter: I am Debra Carter, head of local government
finance and public service performance.
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[4]
Mr Cuthbert: I am Frank Cuthbert from the Welsh Government
scrutiny, democracy and participation team.
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[5]
William Powell: A warm welcome to you all. We are here to
consider two petitions this morning—P-O4-331 on the filming
and recording of council meetings, and P-04-332 on local authority
spending details over £500. On the filming and recording of
council meetings, we previously issued a consultation and received
a number of responses. We would like to go straight to questions,
and Bethan has indicated that she would like to ask the first
question.
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[6]
Bethaan Jenkins:
Beth yw barn Llywodraeth Cymru ar ei
gwneud yn angenrheidiol yn statudol i gyhoeddi manylion gwariant
dros £500 neu £1,000, er enghraifft?
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Bethan Jenkins: What is the Welsh
Government’s view on introducing a statutory obligation to
publish details of expenditure over £500 or £1,000, for
example?
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[7]
Carl Sargeant: I thank the Member for her question. I have
made it very clear in Plenary that my view is that local
authorities should determine this approach themselves; it is for
them to decide locally whether they should do that. I have no
current intention to make that statutory.
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[8]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch am yr esboniad hwnnw. Pe bai
llywodraeth leol yn penderfynu gwneud hyn, a fyddai hynny’n
gwneud eu gweithredoedd yn fwy agored a thryloyw, gan
ganiatáu i’r cyhoedd allu gweld yn iawn lle mae arian
prin cynghorau yn cael ei wario?
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Bethan Jenkins: Thank you for that
explanation. If local government decided to do this, would it make
their actions more open and transparent, allowing the public to see
exactly where scarce council money is being spent?
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[9]
Carl Sargeant: That is an interesting debate. I am all for
transparent councils and transparent government—that is
absolutely the right thing to do—but there is a real question
of balance here, given the onerous task of publishing all
expenditure above £500. I am aware that some councils are
already doing that, but the jury is out, if you like, on its
effectiveness. Whether it has reduced the number of freedom of
information requests is still unknown. Is the task of doing this
financially and physically onerous, compared with the information
that the general public might want to access through the FOI system
that is already in place? It is a question of balance between
publishing everything or not publishing everything and the cost
involved in doing that.
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[10]
William Powell: Minister, you have anticipated part of my
next question. Has the Welsh Government had any contact with
Monmouthshire County Council and Newport City Council regarding the
implementation of their publication scheme?
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[11]
Carl Sargeant: My team constantly monitors what is happening
in local government across the board. As I said earlier, it is
early days yet as to whether the effectiveness of publication has
had a direct impact on publication versus freedom of information
requests. I will seek more detail on that, and when I have it, I
will be more than happy to share it with committee. However, as I
said, it is a matter for the local authority to explain to local
people why it spends as it does, and whether it believes that it is
right to publish details of spending over £500, as some
councils are doing. At the moment, I have not seen the benefits of
doing that.
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[12]
William Powell: In addition, has there been any contact as
yet between the Welsh Government and Eric Pickles, or any of his
officials in England, given the recent developments with regard to
the recommendation that authorities on the English side of the
border should publish in this fashion?
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[13]
Carl Sargeant: I have regular correspondence with Mr
Pickles. Of course, there is a different policy agenda at the other
end of the M4, but I respect the right of another Government to
make a judgment about making direction or providing authorities
with statutory guidance. I would hope that that would be replicated
in that Government’s attitude towards this one.
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[14]
Russell George: You have addressed the question that I was
going to ask, but have you done any work on the increase in the
number of FOI requests that councils have received since freedom of
information legislation was introduced?
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[15]
Carl Sargeant: No. Again, I have asked my team to start
looking at these questions. What is the main thrust of FOI
requests? Is it financial, or policy related, or about the
decision-making process? I do not have any data to share with you
on that at the moment. As I said, some councils have started
publishing financial details, but it is too early to tell whether
there will be a drop in FOI requests because of the transparency of
publication. It is something that I would be keen to understand
better, when those data are available. It may prove to be a cost
benefit, if the information is useful, but if you look at it in
another way, there must be quite a few transactions over
£500, and some of the more important things that people would
wish to home in on could get lost in the data. You would have to go
through all those data to find a specific element that an FOI
request might turn up now. You might want to know the exact amount
of money spent on the number 5 bus service, or whatever.
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[16]
There are two ways of looking at this. Is publication of
transactions over £500 cost-beneficial and transparent,
making this a better system than FOI, through which data can be
obtained now? The jury is out on that, and I am not convinced. It
is, therefore, to be determined locally whether there is value for
money. If there is proved to be value for money, that is something
that I would have to think about in the future in considering how
we share that best practice across local authorities.
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[17]
Russell George: Analysing those data is crucial in taking
this forward, so I agree with you, Minister.
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[18]
William Powell: Joyce, you indicated that you want to ask a
question.
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[19]
Joyce Watson: Minister, taking this from the other side,
concern has been expressed that small and medium-sized enterprises
could avoid undertaking local authority work if publishing spend
information meant that competitors had a greater opportunity to
obtain knowledge of payments made. Have you looked at or thought
about that aspect?
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[20]
Carl Sargeant: I expect that there are pros and cons to
that. The ease of obtaining figures on local authority spending on
a certain service might be beneficial for businesses in some ways.
However, I do not intend to interfere with the business protocols
of local authorities. This is about a market-driven force, in terms
of delivery of services, and none of these data are unobtainable.
If it is onerous to publish all of these figures, then we must
measure the value for money aspect of this. Businesses can already
obtain these figures through the FOI system. I do not yet know
whether there are any benefits from publicising this upfront.
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[21]
William Powell: We now move to consider P-04-331, which is
perhaps the higher profile of the two petitions submitted by Jacqui
Thompson and her supporters. This petition is on the filming and
recording of council meetings, which is an issue that has been
raised independently in Plenary over recent months. A number of us
have some background on this issue, given our local government
experience. Joyce, I believe that you want to kick off on this
petition.
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[22]
Joyce Watson: Minister, you said in your letter to this
committee that you would encourage local authorities to allow
members of the public to film their proceedings. What specific
steps are you taking to encourage councils to do that?
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[23]
Carl Sargeant: I am doing that by not standing in their way
if they wish to do that. My encouragement has been made public to
councils in order for them to adopt a policy that, again, goes back
to our last discussion about openness and transparency. I am
comfortable with councils filming their meetings—I have made
that statement in the past—but it is for them to make that
decision.
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[24]
Joyce Watson: In the evidence that we have received,
Pembrokeshire County Council thought that not making verbatim
recordings of proceedings might place councils in a disadvantageous
position in relation to legal proceedings, should an edited version
of a council debate be used to support a claim or complaint. Do you
have any views on that?
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[25]
Carl Sargeant: The fact that some things are taken out of
context goes with the world of politics and the broader media
environment. You must look at the whole story, or the whole
statement that has been made; people will often be familiar with
just taking part of a sentence, which a Minister or a political
opponent may or may not have said. Interestingly, Pembrokeshire has
just announced that it is to show its council meetings on the
internet, so, while it had a concern, it may have reviewed that
concern and now feels more comfortable in taking forward the
proposal to broadcast meetings on the internet, which I
support.
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[26]
Joyce Watson: That is good.
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[27]
William Powell: Minister, thank you for flagging that up; I
also become aware of that in the last 24 hours. The fact that
Pembrokeshire has taken that step has been quite well-received by
many interested commentators. What work has your department
undertaken with Welsh councils, and possibly the Welsh Local
Government Association, in exploring the benefits of the
broadcasting of council meetings, particularly with regard to the
assessment of the cost benefit?
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[28]
Carl Sargeant: I am not in charge of broadcasting, nor are
local authorities. However, as I said, I am sympathetic to a
structured process for local authorities to be able to stream their
meetings. Their meetings should be transparent and open to the
public, as I said earlier, but councils should also be aware that
filming is being taking place. Covert filming is not appropriate;
it should be about everyone being transparent and knowing exactly
what is happening at the appropriate time.
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[29]
Notwithstanding what I have just said, you will be aware that, in
terms of the Local Government (Wales) Measure 2011 that we
introduced, we are exploring with authorities the opportunity for
remote attendance. I expect that remote attendance would probably
only be achieved by a video link of some sort.
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10.45 a.m.
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[30]
Therefore, to enable a council to do that, there will have to be
some sort of video system. I am not a techie, Chair, but I believe
that, if a video system was streamed into the council and out of
the council, it would not be that difficult to upload that to a
YouTube-type website. I am sure that the other Members must have a
view on how that is done; it is certainly not for me as a
non-technical person to offer a response on that.
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[31]
William Powell: What assessment would you make of the
potential environmental gains that could be made by minimising
travel by staff and members of the general public? You may be aware
of recent large-scale meetings that have happened in Powys on
particular issues that are contentious there, where there has been
webcasting, which seems to have been well received and extended the
proceedings of the council to a much wider group of people than
otherwise would have had access to them.
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[32]
Carl Sargeant: There are two elements there. The first is
the openness of an authority to transfer the knowledge of a meeting
beyond a building, so that people in the north or the south of
Powys, wherever the meeting may have been, could access it, subject
to the internet or whichever medium was used to share that
information, which is important.
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[33]
Secondly, and part of that is where the local government Measure
came in, is opening the world of politics and governance to a
broader intake of people. Generally, only people who live in the
locality of the council offices or meeting rooms could attend
meetings, because of work or other commitments, such as family
commitments. Through remote attendance, we tried to give other
people the opportunity to be engaged in this process. We know, and
I have given evidence to other committees about this, that the
profile of the average councillor is over the age of 65, white and
male. That is true in most councils. We are hoping that, by remote
attendance, we might be able to open up that activity to mums at
home, who may be looking after their children during the day, or
fathers who are looking after their children during the day. Rather
than making the journey to a council office somewhere that is way
away, they could access meetings by remote attendance. It all fits
in quite nicely. The element of remote attendance might lend itself
to the publication of meetings on the internet. The digital age has
come in, and we should embrace it and use it as best as possible.
However, I do not intend to instruct local authorities to do
that.
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[34]
William Powell: One final area that is worth our being aware
of is the possibility of streamlining council business and
increasing productivity. For example, I and other colleagues will
have been present at planning meetings of principal local
authorities and national parks, which I know are beyond your
immediate remit, where officers will have been sitting around for
hours waiting for their agenda item to come up, whereas this could
lead more seamlessly to people coming when the relevant point has
been reached and, therefore, sparing a lot of duplication of
process.
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[35]
Bethan Jenkins:
O ran opsiynau eraill, os ydych yn
dweud nad ydych yn barod i’w gwneud yn ofynnol i gynghorau
ddarlledu cyfarfodydd yn fyw, a fyddech yn ystyried, er nad ydych
yn arbenigwr yn y maes, ei wneud drwy ffyrdd eraill, er enghraifft
gwe-gamera neu drawsgrifiad llawn o’r hyn sy’n digwydd?
A wnewch edrych ar ddulliau technolegol eraill o gynnal y
gwasanaeth penodol hwn?
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Bethan
Jenkins: On other options, if you say that you are unwilling to
require councils to broadcast meetings live, would you consider,
although you are not an expert in the field, doing that through
other methods, such as by web cam or a full transcript of
proceedings? Will you look at other technical means of providing
this specific service?
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[36]
Carl Sargeant: As I said, I am not opposed to authorities
doing this. I think that Torfaen County Borough Council is very
high-tech in terms of digital media; I am not sure whether it
streams its meetings, but I know that it is very good in terms of
its use of information and communications technology. It is a
policy decision for councils whether they do this or not. I would
support a council in streaming its meetings; it is good for
openness and transparency for the broader public. However, as I
said earlier, I am perhaps not the one to suggest the process by
which that would happen. I am, nonetheless, quite sure that there
are systems in place that can do that. We have seen this in
Pembrokeshire this week, in the way that it is adopting this system
at a relatively small cost in relation to the outcome that it may
achieve.
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[37]
Russell George: I should say that the Chair and I are both
members of Powys County Council and we are both under 60, are we
not, Chair? [Laughter.] We are white males, however. I just
wanted to point out that Powys County Council had a very good
meeting a fortnight ago, which over 1,000 people attended—it
was also broadcast on the web. It was very well received in the
community. I was interested in your views on councillors attending
meetings remotely. How would that work with voting, as that would
have to take place remotely as well? There are issues with that, I
suppose.
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[38]
The one issue that I wanted to ask you about is this: in providing
evidence, one council talked about the cost of Welsh and English
translation and the need for palantypists for meetings that are
broadcast. Do you believe that such issues should be used by
councils as a reason for not broadcasting meetings?
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[39]
Carl Sargeant: If you wish me to expand on that, I cannot
see how uploading a meeting to YouTube or whatever should make any
difference to the operation and function of a council that is
happening with or without a camera. So, if an authority believes
that it is compliant in its function of holding a meeting, I do not
see that putting a camera in front of it is a bigger issue.
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[40]
Russell George: You have expressed your view that this is a
matter for each individual local authority. Opening it up a bit
further, however, this technology is relatively inexpensive,
especially when it comes perhaps to just streaming audio. What are
your views on town and community councils doing this, so long as
costs were low? Do you have views on that as well?
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[41]
Carl Sargeant: Some of the larger town and community
councils might have the financial capacity and the knowledge base
to deliver that. There is much innovative thinking going on in
town, parish and community councils, and if they wished to adopt
that process, I would certainly not stand in the way of it. I would
encourage them to do that. There is a cost involved, but it is a
matter for local authorities and the local town and community
councils to decide whether they think it appropriate or not.
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[42]
Bethan Jenkins: I acknowledge that you say it is for the
councils to decide, but is there any way that you could provide
some sort of guidance? We have heard of instances in which people
have been reprimanded or judged for filming during council meetings
without permission. Is there anything that you could do? You have
given us your view that you would be happy for things to be put
online and so on, but could you express it to local authorities, so
that those local authorities that are not so high-tech or up with
the latest technology might have a different opinion?
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[43]
Carl Sargeant: I am certainly more than happy to talk with
the WLGA and One Voice Wales, in terms of town and community
councils, to express my view on the matter. It would be for the
umbrella organisations to share that information with local
authorities or town and community councils.
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[44]
I have made it quite clear. There has been quite a high profile
case relating to this issue, and I understand why the petition has
been raised. I am often accused by Members of micromanaging local
authorities, but I have made it clear that, where this is a
decision by a local authority or a local agency, I am loath to
interfere in the process. However, if you are suggesting that
sharing my views more widely may help to clarify the situation, I
would certainly not be opposed to that.
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[45]
Russell George: This question follows on slightly from
Bethan’s. Clearly, there is an obligation on local
authorities to open up their meetings to the public so that the
media and reporters can go in and report, but there are issues with
reporters going in with cameras and being asked to leave. That is
perhaps where the Welsh Government could come in and have a view,
take an opinion or provide guidance.
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[46]
Carl Sargeant: I believe that a process is already in place
for private meetings in local authorities, and that is well
established. Forgive me if I have misinterpreted this, but I think
that the issue is about the general approach to filming council
meetings more broadly. My view has been very clear: if filming or
recording of a council meeting is to take place, either by a third
party or by a council official, everybody should be made aware of
that. The issue for me is about being open and transparent, so that
all parties fully understand what the ground rules are in this
regard. I think that that is fair and reasonable. I would not like
to see covert camera or recording operations in local
democracy.
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[47]
It also comes back to the point that you made about the potential
for being selective with the elements that are published, such as
single lines or a paragraph that a member may or may not have said.
It is about taking a reasonable approach in taking this forward. I
would, nevertheless, encourage local authorities and the various
agencies involved in local democracy to give serious consideration
to the opportunities open to them in terms of the transparency of
their organisations in the broader public light.
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[48]
William Powell: Minister, thank you for your openness in
dealing with these questions. You seem very much to be at the
epicentre of this drive for transparency in local government. I
would ask you to share some of your experiences with Cabinet
colleagues, because, increasingly, there seems to be pressure on
other services and areas of government, such as health boards and
so on. I have previously raised with you the possibility of
webcasting police authority meetings, which is another area that
does not always seem to be as open to scrutiny and public awareness
as others. So, if you could share this with Cabinet colleagues, it
would be really helpful.
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[49]
We are very grateful to you for coming with your team to address
our issues today. Given the shortage of time, and because we want
to consider your responses properly, I propose that we consider the
petition in the light of your responses at our next meeting, which
will be on 13 March. Thank you—diolch yn fawr.
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